It’s one thing to know you want to upgrade your work life. It’s another to take the steps necessary to establish a new routine and career outlook. There are three phases to any major life change, according to management research findings: separation, experimentation, and reintegration.
Making a change is possible, manageable, and worth the effort. As proof, two women who are well into the process reflect on the steps they took to come as far as they have, as well as the payoff they’ve seen in their lives.
Guests:
Shilpa Bhandarkar is the CEO of the tech venture arm of a law firm.
Bridget O’Brien is a marketing director within a large health system.
Resources:
- “The 3 Phases of Making a Major Life Change,” by Herminia Ibarra
- “How Dual-Career Couples Can Work Through the Coronavirus Crisis,” by Jennifer Petriglieri
- “How Dual-Career Couples Make It Work,” by Jennifer Petriglieri
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Email us: womenatwork@hbr.org
AMY BERNSTEIN: Amy G, today’s your first day back in the office since March 12, 2020. How’s it going?
AMY GALLO: Mostly good. It was a little terrifying, walking in the door, but I got teary, I have to say teary.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Teary?
AMY GALLO: This office was such a huge part of my pre-pandemic life, and I missed it, and I missed the people in it.
EMILY CAULFIELD: So how does being here feel different than it used to for you?
AMY GALLO: I feel different. The life I was leading in March 2020 was incredibly hectic. I was on a plane three, four times a month. I was coming up here to the office, which is an hour commute for me, twice a week, sometimes more. And it felt unsustainable. And then when the pandemic hit, I just stayed home. It was just such a different way of being, and I really thought, all that time at home, I thought, I’m going to make some big changes. That life I was leading was totally unsustainable. I’ve got to rethink it. And yet here I am, I really haven’t actually made a single change. It’s been more a thought experiment, than an actual shift.
AMY BERNSTEIN: You’re listening to Women at Work, from Harvard Business Review. I’m Amy Bernstein.
EMILY CAULFIELD: I’m Emily Caulfield.
AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo. So how do I act on this window of opportunity, and change my work life for the better?
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, as it happens, Am, we published an article on that by Herminia Ibarra.
AMY GALLO: I know that. “The 3 Phases of Making a Major Life Change.” I’ve actually read it several times, wishing and hoping that the words would somehow just force me to make the change.
EMILY CAULFIELD: OK, so tell us about the framework. What’s phase one?
AMY GALLO: Herminia calls phase one separation. That’s where we’re disconnected from all our old routines and habits. And we tend to be more malleable in this stage, because we’re separated from the people and places that bring up our old habits and remind us of our old self.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah. I think we’ve all definitely been in that place over the last 18 months. OK, so what about phase two?
AMY GALLO: So, phase two is called liminality, where the normal rules that dictate our professional life are temporary lifted, and we have the opportunity to experiment, without actually committing necessarily to anything. But it’s a time to reflect on what we’re learning, and what we like and what we don’t like.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Did I do any of that? No, I’m still in phase one.
AMY GALLO: Phase two sounds nice, doesn’t it?
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah. What about phase three?
AMY GALLO: That’s called reintegration. This is the opportunity to produce lasting change. And Herminia says this is about striking while the iron is hot, you’ve done these experiments. You’ve reflected on what you like and what you don’t. And now, you need to be intentional about making change. So, you need to set goals, be motivated, really trying to seize the opportunity to make the shifts that you envision.
EMILY CAULFIELD: And so, in Herminia’s framework, Amy G, which phase do you feel like you’re in?
AMY GALLO: Ooh. I am also still deep in the separation phase. I have certainly dipped my toe a little bit into the liminal phase and thought really about experimenting. And I keep thinking, What are the questions I need to ask myself, so when this all ends, if it ever ends, I’m ready to lead a different life? But I really haven’t executed on any of that, which is why I really wanted to do this episode; because I’m quite jealous of women who’ve made some of these shifts, and I want to be inspired by them, especially the ones who are further along in this process.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, Amy, the two women you interviewed, who we’re all about to listen to, are fonts of insight and inspiration.
AMY GALLO: They really are. Shilpa Bhandarkar is the CEO of the tech venture arm of a global law firm. She and her team build software for the firm’s clients to use. And Bridget O’Brien is the director of marketing for the Department of Surgery at a large health system in New York City. Here’s my conversation with them.
AMY GALLO: Shilpa, let’s start with you. What was your pre-pandemic life like, and how happy or satisfied were you with the pace and how things were going?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: So, pre-pandemic, I describe it like a holding pattern. I had a wonderful job in a great organization, loved the people I was working with, enjoyed everything. I have a lovely husband, lovely children, everything was good; but I generally felt like one foot has been on the brake for a while.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Second year, I used to describe it to my husband as being, if anyone who’s old enough to have driven stick shifts regularly, it’s like being in second gear, which is just not the fun gear to be in. And I think the frustrating thing, in retrospect, is it wasn’t visible to anyone but me or maybe my closest friends. So, everything good, but always that feeling that it could be so much better, bigger, faster. And immediately before the pandemic, I took on another role that I was doing in parallel to this role. So, I think in the few months before the start of the pandemic, I was probably drowning in work, and not so happy.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Bridget, how about you? How happy were you with the pace of your life, February 2020?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: Yeah. So I was pretty drained, at that point. I had just moved. I had relocated be with my partner outside of Manhattan. So, I had a four-hour commute every day: two hours in and two hours out, if things ran like clockwork. I felt like there was no time for my life, things that you want to do. You want to go to the gym, you want to cook healthy dinners for yourself, which take time. And I didn’t have that. All I had time for was work.
It’s funny, because I don’t feel like I remember feeling drained, but now that I’ve had time to look back, I was like, oh my gosh, that was unsustainable. I would go to bed, already thinking about… The last thing you do before you go to bed is set your alarm for that super early commute, and you’re already worried about making that train, and what you have to do the next day, and just keeping your head down and just go, go, go. So, I was pretty drained with everything.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Yeah. So, take us now to the start of the pandemic, spring 2020, or even any time over the last year. What changed for you? Shilpa, you want to start?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: So, a few things; I’ve been thinking about this a lot, actually, over the last five or six months in this new sort of steady state. In the first bit of the pandemic, there was almost less childcare for me, because my children are at a particular age. So there were eight and 11, so old enough where I’m not changing diapers, but I had none of the invisible childcare that no one sees, or the dropping off the uniforms, the extracurriculars, the birthday parties, the birthday presents. So, all of that, gone.
Then, all of the invisible work that is done in the home, was suddenly very visible to both husband and children. Right? So suddenly, now when the house is a mess, it’s not their… Guess what guys, there is no magic fairy that cleans up the house and get stuff done. There’s a person that makes all of this happen.
But the one bit that actually really helped us as a couple, there was an HBR article actually on dual career couples that we found relatively early on, and we actually plowed our way through it as very good professionals. And I think that was it. We came up with a new deal, because we had a blank sheet of paper. And now we do it every few months, and that’s been the biggest change where we say, OK, for this quarter, what are our parenting goals? Whose career is taking precedence? And all of those conversations. We’ve never ever talked about careers in that way. And I think those things really helped.
And I think also just… You just have to focus. There was no time to focus on anything other than work and family, and you had to prioritize what you meant by good family time. Did you really care if they did their math homework, or did you care if you played sort of Lego with them, or something for their emotional development or to keep them safe, and make them feel like we were all going to get through it. So I think priorities changed. Visibility changed, kept more equal.
The one thing for us, is we have two daughters. So the other thing, when I said everything became visible, for me, it was wonderful to see it, because my husband, I think, was then very conscious that we had fallen into these quite gender roles at home. So it was a very conscious decision to take groceries and food planning and kitchen stuff. I don’t know how else to describe it, in his meal, in a very meal role, like him doing that.
And me, we talked about me talking about work more at home, so that the children knew I have big spreadsheets, and I deal with numbers, and I present to the executive committee of our company, and things like that. So, we made conscious decisions around that as well, because we were quite aware that our children were in the house, watching us all the time, for months. And we were giving them messages without necessarily meaning to or wanting to, so we had to take a little bit more control of the narrative.
AMY GALLO: I have read a lot of those articles. We’ve talked about them on the show. And yet, I know so few people who actually have the conversation that you’re talking about: the quarterly conversation, where they sit down with their partner, and hash out all the tasks, and who’s going to do what. What about the pandemic made that more possible for you?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Because we weren’t optimizing what we currently had. I feel like even with the career, it was always like, when things get better, I can take a step forward. This was, we have no clue how to deal with the next few months. So, who is going to do grocery shopping, when you can’t do grocery shopping online in five minutes, because the grocery stores have run out of stuff, and someone’s going to have to spend three hours in line? Who is in charge of exercise? Who is in charge of laundry? None of how we were used to living applied anymore. But also, it was quite insular, so it had to be just us figuring it out. There was no one else. It was also, like I said, because I was slightly drowning in a new role before the start of the pandemic, it was also the first time where we had to genuinely have the, am I going to quit or am I going to continue?
I’ve never been in roles where it’s so all-consuming, where we’ve had to say, actually, we can’t make this work as a dual working family. We’ve had lots of conversations about what my husband needs to do to be supportive. And I think you say all the right things; but this was sort of where the rubber hit the road. It was like, what are you going to do now, to enable me to continue working? There were lots of changes that were then made. Right? So grocery shopping are taken off my list. Lots of stuff just got taken off my list, and it felt more shared.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Bridget, I’m thinking about you setting that alarm, in mid-March 2020. What were you setting your alarm for, at that point?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: Yeah. I mean, once the pandemic actually hit, the alarm went away eventually. And so, that was a complete life change. It was like, what do I do with all of that time back?
AMY GALLO: And what did you change? How did you make use of that time?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: Yeah. So I think, I was feeling drained, and I was dealing with that commute, and I really felt like a hamster on a wheel; that cliche is, it was me. I wasn’t able to kind of pick my head up, and think clearly about not just my work and my role in the company, but my value to the company. So I think when we were tasked with all working from home, there were a lot of conversations with my leadership, and I know that was being reported up to higher leadership about productivity. That was the key word. Be productive. How are we measuring productivity? What are you doing? Show us what you’re doing, all the time, every day. And I had been working that way. I was on that wheel for a long time. I was that hamster. And I think the recaptured time allowed me to refocus, and actually take the priority of productivity away, and kind of shift it to value.
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: So, what can I do? What can I work on? What projects can I accept, that are actually going to be valuable to the company, and be valuable to me in my career, and make me feel like my time is being used wisely? Because I am at a higher level role, but I think I’m actually kind of in a different boat than Shilpa, that I’ve been at the same company for many, many, many years, my whole career, pretty much. So I think I was a little bit comfortable in the wheel too, of just keeping my head down and getting the work done, even though it was at a crazy pace, and not really seeing myself at the elevated role that I had climbed to. And I needed to elevate my thinking about other more valuable projects: budget optimization, personnel satisfaction; those types of kind of bigger, leadership questions.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. It’s one thing to have that realization of, this is what I’m done with. It’s another to actually make the change. When you first had that realization that you were going to change something, what did you think it was going to take? And did you think you had the resources you needed, or the time or space to actually make that change?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: So, the honest answer is no. It was, this could break me. There were definitely moments in 2020, where I’m like, this is too hard. But I think it’s that constant reevaluation, So, what will it take to get through this phase, these six weeks, or these couple of months, where one of us has an earnings report to put out, or one of us has a big presentation or whatever it is? I think we did very much view it though, as a series of sprints. We weren’t running a marathon; we were just trying to get through this quarter. This was that HBR article I keep coming back to. It was like, let’s get through this quarter, and then reevaluate. And we might have to change something. And then, let’s get through the next one. And then by the time you’re done, it’s been a year, and you’ve got a completely new way of working.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. So it wasn’t like you had a five-year vision. It was just, how are we going to get through this time period? And everything has to shift, to even just get through this time period.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Yeah. And at the end of this time period, suddenly we were both having a lot of fun at work. I landed up getting a much bigger role. I allowed myself to actually apply for a much bigger role that I wouldn’t have in a million years thought of doing pre-pandemic, because I would have done the math about work-life balance, and whether it would work with all the other factors. And I would have said, no, it’s too hard. And something about the pandemic gave me the confidence that, skills wise, I definitely could. I had the support of the people I worked with. I had the support at home, and we would figure it out. It was what, the 11th or 12th month of the pandemic, so it was well into changing how we were operating. But no, we had no, we still have no five-year plan. We’re still in the, let’s make it through, because it keeps changing. So, we’re like, well, we’ll make it through this quarter, and then we’ll… We’re having fun along the way.
AMY GALLO: That’s important. That’s really important. Bridget, how about you? Did you know what needed to change, or how to change it? Did you feel like you had the resources?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: It was a bit serendipitous, in that our surgeon in chief gave me quite a big budget, and there was a big new project that needed a big market launch. It was a great time for me to justify my mind shift that, OK, this is the type of work I need to be working on and focused on. And with that comes a lot of other things. Right? Like trusting your team, not being a helicopter boss, just designating projects, and changing the way that I worked, so that I’m not really doing a lot of the other projects, but I’m able to pass those onto my team, follow up with them, project monitor, so that I can clear some of my headspace and some of my plate, to focus on these bigger initiatives.
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: So, I had to delegate; if I wanted to kind of move into this new role, I needed to get really comfortable with saying, OK, here’s your assignments for the week. Or, here’s the help I need with these for the week. So maybe it wasn’t delegating the entire project, but it definitely was delegating some of the lower-level work, that I had moved on from, and I needed to move on from.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: I think that’s probably been one of my biggest learnings over the pandemic, is how to delegate at home and at work; because you can’t do everything. There weren’t enough hours in the day to do everything. And for someone who’s always been quite controlling about the work product, it took quite something, to actually delegate at home and at work simultaneously. But that’s the only thing that then allows you to bring it all together, to add the value that Bridget was talking about before.
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: It’s funny. I feel like I kind of throughout this, have given myself a promotion in my own mind; that’s what I feel like. And there was no extra money or a title change or anything. I hope my boss doesn’t listen to this, and think, Oh, that’s all she needs to do, is just have some time to think. And she feels like… But I do. I feel like I promoted myself, because I kind of kicked my own butt into high gear, and shifted my mindset to match my career level. And so, with that, things had to change. The pace of our work, the projects that we choose to prioritize, how I communicate to people. I do feel very comfortable saying that we’re a more productive and valuable team now, because of the shift in the way that we work. It was just great to see, because I feel like it’s not just a selfish goal, that it wasn’t just for me to kind of elevate myself to the next level, but it really has helped bring value to the company.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I love how you said you gave yourself a promotion. It would be so interesting if we all just gave ourselves promotions. And I wonder if it would mean promotions would follow too, right? If we just started acting like, No, I have a bigger job now. I’ve got to step up.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: It resonates so much, because I think I did that without calling it that. So I gave myself the promotion. I think you’ll end up behaving in a certain way. And I think you also take your team and your organization forward, without even meaning to in some ways, because that’s now the path you’ve put yourself on. And actually, I guess, for me, a month ago, I got the promotion, without necessarily applying for it.
It just to me is… It is really interesting, because if you give it to yourself, and you behave in a certain way, then you deliver that value. Once you deliver the value, you are seen to be delivering the value. And then, I think in organizations that hopefully are meritocratic, and value their people, then the promotion comes, the title comes, all of the rest comes. Sometimes, I think we order it in exactly the reverse way; or maybe that’s what I did before the pandemic. But I like this way so much more.
AMY GALLO: Rather than waiting for the promotion, give it to yourself, and then it’ll come. First of all, congratulations Shilpa. I love that you’re very believed here around you getting the promotion. Tell us, how did it come to be?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Within the organization, there’s a group of senior directors; that’s the group of management. And I guess I was one level below that, and I have been. And I just said, I’m going to behave like a director. And I am going to go out and do XYZ in the way that our directors do, in the way that our partners do. And well, I am one now. It’s just one of those things where, when they started evaluating who should be in that group, which management does regularly, my name is now in that group.
AMY GALLO: Right. Well, congratulations.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: I wouldn’t have ever in a million years thought that would happen, pre-pandemic. I wouldn’t have even wanted it. I think that was the other thing. That, for me, is the big reset. It would have been, not too scary in the content of it. It would have been too scary for me in what it could have possibly done to the family, to have two people with very big jobs. What would that do to the children? What would that do to my husband’s career? What would that do to the state of the house?
So, I don’t think I’ve ever doubted that I had the potential to do that. And maybe that, for me, is the great reset. I wouldn’t have doubted I had the potential, but I would have never allowed myself to dream of it, or go for it, because I didn’t think it was really possible, without something else breaking. And everything that could break is quite precious. Right? It’s your children, it’s your family, it’s all the people you love. And you think that you’re the glue holding that unit together. And it turns out I’m not; we’re all quite self-sufficient, and together we can actually make this work, so far.
AMY GALLO: Right. Listening to you, both, my takeaway is that this sort of shift requires a lot of work. It’s not something that comes easy. But being able to say you’re a productive and more valuable team seems like a great payoff. Shilpa, what for you has been the payoff of all this work you’ve put into rethinking and reshaping the way you approach your work?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Oh, I’m just so much happier. There’s just a level of happiness and fulfillment. Fulfillment’s probably the better word. It’s hard to describe, but once you feel it, it’s going to be very hard to let go of. I’m definitely more productive at work. I think I add a lot more value. In some ways, that’s the very obvious stuff. But I think that what is not so obvious, is that level of satisfaction, that this was what I wanted, that I was so afraid to give myself. And it feels as good as I thought it would feel. It is really wonderful to actually… And this sounds awful, but to actually say it to my husband, “I totally messed up. I put the doctor’s appointment in for the Monday, and I have a big meeting. Can you take that one?” And the answer is, “Yeah, sure. I’ll move stuff around, and I’ll get that one.”
And my husband’s now actually, in his company, on their diversity and inclusion committee, which I’m not sure, I just don’t know if he would have ever been on it before. But he’s now become such an advocate for women at work. My children are so much more independent. But these only things that are visible to me, and they give me great joy on a daily basis. So for me, all of those sleepless nights through the pandemic, and all the pain of it, and all the, what were difficult conversations for me, because I think I was definitely a segmenter. I’ve always separated work and life, in that sense. And I’ve really had to integrate all of it in the pandemic, like allowing people to see my children, or having those difficult conversations. But with that, I think has also come freedom. It feels lighter. Conversations feel more honest and open. I feel more like me at work, and I feel like me at home.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. I love that. I also, Bridget and Shilpa, want to ask about the phases of this transition. Herminia talks in her article about three phases: the separation, where we’re separated from our current routines, or our current way of working. This liminality, this sort of in-between stage, where we’re not doing what we used to do, but we haven’t actually fully embraced this new identity. And then the third piece, which is the integration, where we actually take these ideas about who we can be, or how we do want to live our life or pursue our career, and make them actionable, make them part of what we do. In those three phases, where would you say you are now? And what’s for you, the sort of next frontier of living into this new pace of life?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: So, I think I’m definitely, I suspect, at the reintegration phase, is that?
AMY GALLO: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: But haven’t quite worked out how we are going to make it permanent.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. What are your thoughts on how you’re going to do that?
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Some of the things that worked in the pandemic, I think I’m going to try and continue. So the open conversations, the asking for the help that I need, I don’t think that was something I’ve ever done before, professionally or personally. So, at home, now, I can say. “There’s a really big presentation, and I just need a week when I don’t have to think about anything else. Can you pick up the slack for me?” And the answer is lovely, because it’s always a “Yes.” And it’s just having that conversation, which we’ve been married 17 years. It is sad that it took a pandemic to get to this point.
But even at work; they are all actually male partners who, in that sense, don’t have that much child-caring responsibilities; but actually saying, “This is the week I need to help, because my husband has an earnings report or whatever it is coming up. I need to have the flexibility to do some affair, or whatever it is.” And being confident enough to say it, because they know actually I will deliver, and I’m an integral part of the team. That has got me through the pandemic, and helped hugely. And I think that’s a habit I would like to continue: open, honest conversations, which I think are actually more me anyway, I just never brought that to work earlier.
AMY GALLO: Right. So it’s not just with your husband, but with the people you work with and work for.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Yeah.
AMY GALLO: Bridget, how about you? Where do you see yourself in these three phases, and how are you thinking about making things stick?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: I think I’m squarely in the actionable phase. And so, something I’ve seen work really well for me, is open communication, upwards and downwards. I’ve learned this from having previous wonderful bosses and leaderships, that they would always keep me in the loop, and things were transparent. And even if it wasn’t a project that I was working on, or anything that I would be near touching, in my earlier days in my career, they still kept me in the loop. And I always appreciated that, because it teaches you so much about leadership mindset, and what your boss is working on.
So, I try to do that with my team. “These are the projects I’m working on. Tell me what you’re working on.” It keeps our roles defined, instead of me going back to that pace of, “OK. I’ll help you with that project.” Or, “Let’s work on this in tandem, to just get it out the door.” So being mindful of how I’m communicating this new role that I’ve put myself in, or this new way I think about my role, is one way I’m trying to keep on track.
AMY GALLO: What if the commute comes back? How are you going to survive that?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: That’s an interesting question. Luckily, I do think my work will be flexible. But I haven’t allowed myself to really think a ton about that, because I feel like we’re working so well in this space. So I probably should think about it, but God forbid they do ask me to come back five days a week. I might need to reassess where I’m at, and kind of take the skills that I’ve learned, and maybe use them elsewhere. But we’ll see.
But it’s interesting, just off on a separate little tangent, when we were thinking about the commute, Shilpa said something great about your daughter seeing you giving these huge presentations to executives. And, “Mommy has work timelines and deliverables that you’re responsible for.” And I’m actually expecting my first baby in a few months, and so that’s one of my parenting goals that I’ve written down. We know she’s a girl, and so I want her to see mommy in the business suit, in the power suit, checking into the city, and giving that presentation, and then cheersing it at the end of the night. Because what they see is so important to how they’re shaped. So, if the commute comes back, it does get me into the city a few times a week, too, so I would love that.
AMY GALLO: That’s right.
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: So, it wouldn’t be all bad.
AMY GALLO: A little bit of a break, but four hours is a long time. And one of the things about making these changes stick, is thinking about when we have new stressors, or we have the return of the old stressors, how do we keep our head above water, and keep our eye on the prize about what we want to achieve?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: That’s a great question.
AMY GALLO: It’s a question for all of us, I think.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: I was just going to ask Bridget question. I don’t know if that’s…
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Please.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: So, I guess, now everything that you know, and with a little one on the way, if you did have to commute, or if you chose to commute a couple of days a week, how would you use your commute differently, or would you use it differently now?
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: Yeah, that’s a good question, which I actually have been trying to think about. And my instinct is always to go, well, I would get a jumpstart on my day, and I would use those two hours to work. But I remember saying that two years ago, or whatever it was; and it’s just not feasible, because there’s transfers, and I’m on a train and then a subway, and then a bus. So that answer is out.
So, I have to keep reminding myself of that, that even though that’s aspirational, it’s not functional. I don’t have an answer for how I would use those two hours, but I have an answer for how I would better use time. So, we were talking about family meal planning, or delegating family tasks in the house to others. I think I would need to do a better job of that, so that I can make the most of the time when I am at home. Then I don’t feel so resentful about losing those hours during the week to the commute. So I think I would find ways for me not to be resentful of that time, because I can’t work. I can use it for listening to podcasts, or reading books, or getting some of my personal time back, which would be a goal, as well.
AMY GALLO: Yeah. There’s one way you can listen to this conversation, and think about, this has been an opportunity for the two of you to step up, to do more, to be more ambitious. But in a way, both of your stories are about reprioritizing; so not necessarily being busier or being more ambitious, but just to use your word, Shilpa, more fulfilled, and happier with the way that you’re working. And I have to say, I’m so grateful to both of you for sharing your story, because my selfish hope that this would feel inspiring to me personally, has come true. I’m feeling a little Shilpa and Bridget pressure to rethink how I’m doing things here, because there’s a better way, and you can find it. So, thank you both for being so candid, and for sharing your stories.
SHILPA BHANDARKAR: Thank you for having us.
BRIDGET O’BRIEN: Yes, it’s been great. Thank you.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Amy, so I loved your interview with Shilpa and Bridget. But the idea of resetting, which is something that I totally want to do, got me thinking about the fact that we’re going back to the office really soon. And if I do reset, if I do come up with new habits and new boundaries, how am I actually going to be able to enforce those things for myself, once we’re playing by the same old rules that we once were?
AMY GALLO: Yeah. Basically going pre- the separation phase, back to all our old triggers and old habits.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.
AMY GALLO: And, I think, the expectations of the people around us.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Exactly.
AMY GALLO: And I think that’s the part that keeps me out of that second phase of starting to experiment, is all of those difficult conversations.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah. I’m worried that everything’s going to fall apart once we’re back to that pre-separation phase, like you were saying.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Don’t you think that because we’ve all gone through this, if not together, at least simultaneously, that we’re all sort of thinking about the same thing? So, setting the rules for yourself, articulating them, and sticking to them, I think, get a little bit easier, because others want to do it, too.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Right.
AMY BERNSTEIN: So, for example, one of the things I had to learn to do during the pandemic, was to set a really clear boundary between work and home life. And for me, it was about shutting the door to this bedroom of the house, which was my office, but also shutting off the sound on my computer, so I wouldn’t hear the ding of email landing. And also, I stopped doing everything when I walked out of the office. When I was not in my office at home, I was not working, and I really stuck to it. And I’m going to, I am definitely going to carry that over, I hope.
AMY GALLO: Can we hold you to that?
AMY BERNSTEIN: Well, I hope you will hold me to it. But I also think that when one of us does it, it gives permission for others of us to do it.
AMY GALLO: Yeah.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.
AMY GALLO: But like you, Emily, I am scared, now that we’re getting back into the office, we’re starting this season, and starting to do some in-person speaking stuff. I’m like, oh, am I just headed right back there? And how do I guard against that?
EMILY CAULFIELD: Especially when you haven’t reached the reintegration or integration phase. I’m right there with you, where I’m like, I haven’t integrated anything new yet, and we’re going to go back.
AMY BERNSTEIN: But even talking about this together can be helpful, in helping us be accountable to our needs as we integrate. It’s a physical reintegration, coming into the office a couple of days a week. And making sure that for me, it’s, am I going to start getting in earlier and earlier, and leaving later and later, and then finishing up what I wasn’t able to finish by seven o’clock at home, after dinner? Because that kind of sucked. Yeah, no. I am not doing that.
AMY BERNSTEIN: One of the things that really hit me about Shilpa and Bridget was their equanimity, the calm, the sense that they’ve been through it, they’ve been thoughtful about their lives, they’ve made changes that they didn’t even realize they needed, but they so needed. And they’ve come out the other side with a tremendous amount of, I think, satisfaction. Right? There’s a contentment that I heard, particularly in Shilpa’s voice.
AMY GALLO: Completely.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right? But she’s taken on more. Bridget gave herself a promotion. Shilpa was promoted.
AMY GALLO: Yes.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.
AMY GALLO: They both elevated their careers. And it wasn’t about elevating their careers at the expense of their lives.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right.
AMY GALLO: Which I really loved. But I think lots of times we hesitate, because, oh, that’s going to hurt my work-life balance. That’s going to mean these tough conversations at home. That’s going to mean less time with my children. But they figured out how to do it, so it didn’t have those negative impacts.
AMY BERNSTEIN: And really heard it in Bridget’s conversation, in her thinking around that two-hour commute. I mean, what a nightmare. And she said that, you asked her, “If your employer demands that you come back to the office, how are you going to feel about that?” And she thought for a moment and said, “I might need to think about whether I really want to go back.”” And good for her.
AMY GALLO: Good for her. And I think lots of women are considering that. Right? If I’m not able to sustain these changes that I’ve made, this lifestyle that I’ve gotten used to that I enjoy, that has all these upsides for me, just may not be the right job for me.
AMY BERNSTEIN: Right. I think our sense of what we have to endure to get what we want has shifted pretty dramatically.
EMILY CAULFIELD: Yeah.
AMY GALLO: That’s a great way to put it.
AMY BERNSTEIN: That’s our show. I’m Amy Bernstein.
AMY GALLO: I’m Amy Gallo.
EMILY CAULFIELD: And I’m Emily Caulfield. Our editorial and production team is Amanda Kersey, Maureen Hoch, Adam Buchholz, Rob Eckhardt, Erica Truxler, Tina Tobey Mack, and Elainy Mata. Robin Moore composed this theme music.
AMY GALLO: We are thrilled to be back. Be sure to keep in touch this season. You can always email us at womenatwork@hbr.org.